Talk:FIFA Club World Cup

Fifa does recognize 1960 to 2004 as valid "Club World Cup"

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The decision was made official at a FIFA Council meeting on October 27, 2017, in India, when president Gianni Infantino expressed his desire to create a more robust competition for the Club World Cup - which was made official in 2023 with the 2025 Super World Cup. There were 42 editions of the Intercontinental Cup - from 1960 to 2004 -, played between the champions of the Libertadores and the Champions League, with 25 different world champions. https://ge.globo.com/futebol/mundial-de-clubes/noticia/2023/12/23/fifa-nao-reconhece-os-titulos-de-mundiais-de-santos-flamengo-gremio-e-sao-paulo-checamos.ghtml

also https://twitter.com/FIFAcom/status/1338111177285640195

"It's official: FIFA recognized the Intercontinental Cups as world titles In this way, South America has a total of 13 champions between 1960 and 2004, six of them are Argentine teams: Boca (3), Independiente (2), River, Estudiantes, Racing and Vélez (1)" https://www.lanacion.com.ar/deportes/futbol/la-fifa-reconocio-las-copas-intercontinentales-como-titulos-del-mundo-nid2076625/ Kksssn (talk) 00:50, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

EDIT add more source "FIFA decided this Friday to officially recognize as champions of the Club World Cup the teams that won the Intercontinental Cup between 1960 and 2004, a group in which six Argentine teams enter, with the aim of establishing a unifying criterion between both tournaments." Kksssn (talk) 00:55, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

See above, everything is explained, this competition did not exist before 2000, how hard it is to understand that "world titles" and "FIFA Club World Cup" are NOT the same things. Snowflake91 (talk) 10:14, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

References

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Change name to "FIFA Club World Championship" and create a new article for the new "FIFA Club World Cup"

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Analyzing FIFA's posts from the last days and also FIFA's website I definitely changed my opinion, since before that I was really undecided about how FIFA was really treating the new tournament.

But, at least in my opinion (that's why I'm bringing it up for discussion), now FIFA already decided that 2025 will be the 1st edition of a new FIFA Club World Cup since they are now treating it as "the inaugural champion" and "the inaugural edition".

On FIFA's website: "The inaugural edition of the FIFA Club World Cup will signal the start of a new era in club football history with a brand-new trophy becoming synonymous with the diversity and quality of the global game as club football brings the world together in the United States." [4] Also: "Find out the information on the new club tournament" [5]

On FIFA's Instagram: "...by the inaugural champion" [6]

But, how we will treat the old tournaments?

In my opinion, as FIFA already unified Intercontinental Cup (1960-2004) and FIFA Club World Championship (2000-2023) titles as world champions, also we already correctly treat as a continuation ("It ran from 1960 to 2004, when it was succeeded by the FIFA Club World Championship" - at Intercontinental Cup article) and now we have the new FIFA Intercontinental Cup, with almost the same format, I think the best thing to do is treat the last as a continuation, since all are Super cup like format and different tournaments from the FIFA Club World Cup (2025 onwards).

Finally, there are also non-primary sources adapting themselves to FIFA's decision to call it the new FIFA Club World Cup and 2025 as its inaugural edition, as we can see here: [1] or [2], for example.

SinisterUnion (talk) 15:47, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Last try to engage a discussion here, otherwise I will proceed to edit. Just updating everyone here, I applied for a ticket to watch the tournament and when registering my interest on FIFA's website, I came across the following message: "Join us at the first ever FIFA Club World Cup 2025™!" [1]

By the way, while talking to a friend who is a Borussia Dortmund fan, he corrected me when I said that at least since June FIFA has only been treating 2025 as the inaugural edition of its tournament. No. This has been going on since at least March when Borussia Dortmund's participation in the tournament was announced by FIFA: "German team become the latest club to qualify for the first edition of the new global tournament". [2]

Finally, another piece of news published by FIFA on its social media yesterday. They published it on Instagram stories and also on Facebook. [3] Open quotes: "...gave them enough points to qualify for the new tournament in the USA". [4]

Once again, this is in line with what FIFA has been preaching, as I said before, at least since March. So, I can't agree more that it's bizarre not to make a change after almost 6 months of stabilization in the way FIFA treats 2025 edition, as being the 1st one.

So, I suggest change this article name to FIFA Club World Championship (official tournament's name from 2000 to 2005) and create a new article for the new competition named FIFA Club World Cup. SinisterUnion (talk) 14:23, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

We have to wait for what the other reliable secondary sources and statistical websites are gonna report, and not what the primary source (FIFA) says. When they say "new tournament" they might simply mean the new format? And how are you gonna name the new page, since the FIFA Club World Cup already exists? You cannot simply copy/paste the current content to FIFA Club World Championship and then create this page from scratch for 2025-onwards tournaments only due to several technical reasons. Snowflake91 (talk) 14:41, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

We already have all important reliable secondary sources in the same line as the primary source (FIFA), for example ESPN, Sky News, AP News, etc., treating 2025 as the inaugural edition of a new tournament. [5][6][7]

Answering your question... no, when they say "new tournament" they emphasize inaugural edition in their articles.

And about the 2nd question... FIFA Club World Championship. No, we move this page to FIFA Club World Championship (Help:How to move a page) and create a new (correct) article for the new tournament (2025-onwards). SinisterUnion (talk) 15:13, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

You won't be able to create a new page called FIFA Club World Cup if you move the current page to FIFA Club World Championship, it will still be a redirect, unless it will be called FIFA Club World Cup (2025) or something like that. Snowflake91 (talk) 15:16, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

And we cannot really move the current page to "FIFA Club World Championship", that makes no sense at all, this is the old name of the tournament from 20+ years ago, the latest 2023 edition has been called "FIFA Club World Cup" so this needs to be the article title. Snowflake91 (talk) 15:21, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

What if we don't leave a redirect behind...

"FIFA Club World Championship" makes sense at all, more than that, it would follow a Wikipedia pattern. If you go to the article of the predecessor tournament, you see its name as Intercontinental Cup (football), but that name was used at the time of its creation (1960 until 1979), then later they changed the name to European/South American Cup (1980 until the last edition of that tournament, 2004). You can see the cover of the last edition, the 2004 Intercontinental Cup, that makes no reference to the name Intercontinental Cup, but rather to Toyota (sponsor's reason) European/South American Cup.

So, in my opinion, we follow Wikipedia rules and adapt the article to the new reality. Following FIFA and all reliable non-primary sources, the correct is move this page to "FIFA Club World Championship" and create a new article for the new "FIFA Club World Cup". SinisterUnion (talk) 16:15, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

No, because WP:COMMONNAME applies, literally none of the sources call this tournament "FIFA Club World Championship", you cannot rename it to some ancient name from 2000 just to make a space for the new article with the same name. And no, you cannot do it without a redirect either, per WP:COPYPASTEMOVE, history needs to be preserved as this would broke thousands of redirects when the articles would incorrectly redirect to the new 2025 competition instead to the 2000-2023 one. Snowflake91 (talk) 16:25, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but we can do a Wikipedia:History merging, creating the FIFA Club World Championship article (only a suggestion, but it can be other names like FIFA Club World Cup (2000-23), for example), then merge this article history there. Redirects need to be corrected if needed and we are here to do so. Then, start a new FIFA Club World Cup article (to the new tournament 2025-onwards).

The fact is, we need to find a solution and we cannot keep the article wrong, going against Wikipedia rules (in disagreement with primary source and all reliable secondary sources), only because we don't want the job to correct redirections. SinisterUnion (talk) 17:34, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

History merge and new tournament's article here now

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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After everything I already exposed, taking into account this article is wrong, going against Wikipedia rules since in disagreement with primary source and all reliable secondary sources, I created FIFA Club World Championship and requested that the page history of this page to be merged into the history of the new one. After the merge, we can start work here on the new tournament's article. SinisterUnion (talk) 03:03, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

We JUST had a lengthy discussion about consensus building at WT:FOOTY and you are STILL trying to force your way through. This is beginning to border on disruptive editing. Do NOT make major changes like that unless you have a consensus to do so. Jay eyem (talk) 05:06, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

No, we had a discussion there about 1st edition of FIFA Club World Cup (where there is no more discussion, it has already been proven, following Wikipedia guidelines, with primary and secondary sources in agreement). Not about the name of the old FIFA Club World Championship/Cup (this discussion is here, in this talk page and without answer since 5 September until 16 September when I posted again, then only 1 user showed up to discuss and help improve Wikipedia). So, you cannot say it is bordering on disruptive editing, because I used Wikipedia admin's advice and proceed with the editing, based on the situation that was narrated. SinisterUnion (talk) 12:23, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

You think changing the redirect from FIFA Club World Championship to represent the tournament from 2000-2023, without consensus, is acceptable? Especially since there was just an extensive conversation at WT:FOOTY about the lack of consensus to implement the changes you are asking for? After you posted discussions on three different talk pages instead of focusing the discussion on one page? Do we seriously need to bring this up again? You seriously don't understand why this could be considered disruptive? Jay eyem (talk) 04:29, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

The change was reverted already. Read my comment and try to interprete it. I know you can do it. Whoever goes to the battlefield trying to revolutionize, making improvements and fighting to make Wikipedia better, will always end up fighting lazy people that don't want to adapt themselves to reality, just because they will have too much job, like correct too many redirects, for example. SinisterUnion (talk) 05:20, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Consensus. Read it. Or do you want to re-open the recently closed discussion at WT:FOOTY since these conversations are very obviously related to one another? We can ask the closing mod if you'd like. Jay eyem (talk) 03:50, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Also, more examples to prove what I'm talking about and that a change should be made to keep this article updated. We do need to follow Wikipedia rules and respect primary source and reliable non-primary sources. As I said, we cannot just "wait", because "I bet FIFA will change its mind in the future", as I've heard, only to avoid "too much job".

Just one more in hundreds of examples of reliable non-primary sources also treating 2025 as the inaugural edition, "the inaugural 32-team FIFA Club World Cup, as the countdown to the first edition in the United States next year continues", and no, it doesn't say first expanded tournament or something like that, it clearly says only "inaugural" and "1st edition" in the same phrase. Also, "The emblem, which will be adapted and used for all future editions of the tournament", denotes a grouping and continuity from 2025 onwards, once again supporting the fact that this is the 1st edition. [8][9]

So, we need to adapt this article name and create a new one for the new tournament. SinisterUnion (talk) 14:52, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

That FrontRowSoccer article may actually be the only non-primary reliable source you have shared so far that does not also reference it being an expanded tournament. Since you clearly have no interest in letting this go, I am going to go ahead and ask the closing admin if they would re-open that discussion so that we can discuss things further. Jay eyem (talk) 04:08, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

I can re-open that discussion and close this one, or leave it as the status quo. I don't think it matters where the discussion takes place, but I think there only needs to be one going on at a time. Black Kite (talk) 11:42, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Personally I would prefer re-opening the conversation at WT:FOOTY since that had a fair amount of engagement and will likely result in greater participation. I am of course happy to leave things as they are, provided there is a consensus reached before any changes are made in the future. Jay eyem (talk) 03:06, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

@Jay eyem and SinisterUnion: I'm not extremely invested in this discussion, but it's worth noting that FIFA just published an article about the 2024 FIFA Intercontinental Cup. In the section "Evolution of FIFA's annual global club competition", I think it is laid out quite clearly that FIFA will recognise their Intercontinental Cup as the successor to the FIFA Club World Championship (2000–2005)/FIFA Club World Cup (2006–2023). Of course this causes quite a mess as far as our articles go. If it were agreed to separate the topics, I would say this article should be moved to FIFA Club World Cup (2000–2023). S.A. Julio (talk) 03:33, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

@Black Kite The discussion can continue here, you don’t need to re-open there and close here.

So, as @S.A. Julio said, FIFA published an article today defining many situations (which for some people was already obvious, but for other people it was still not clear):

First, the FIFA Intercontinental Cup is a continuation of the old tournament held between 2000-23, which was already a continuation of the Intercontinental Cup held between 1960-2004.

Second, from 2025 onwards we will have a new tournament, the FIFA Club World Cup.[10]

I agree with @S.A. Julio to move this article to FIFA Club World Cup (2000–2023). SinisterUnion (talk) 04:35, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Whether or not it was obvious or ostensibly unclear isn't the point. It's pretty obvious that all of this is just branding for FIFA. It is also obvious that there have been multiple tournaments in the past that have used the branding "FIFA Club World Cup". The point is that you need to wait until 1. things are official, because we are just NOW getting things from FIFA regarding the new FIFA Intercontinental Cup and thus vis a vis the Club World Cup and 2. you need to wait until there is a consensus to make any changes. Sometimes things just take time. We have WP:CRYSTAL for a reason, even when it seems fairly obvious what the outcome will be. Jay eyem (talk) 07:29, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

First of all, no, we are not "just NOW getting things from FIFA". FIFA has been publishing about FIFA Club World Cup as a new tournament, inaugural edition and 1st edition at least since March, according to many sources I already posted here. Second, "things are official", FIFA has just published an article confirming what it has been saying since March.[11] So, it is obviously official, since it is on FIFA's website and, also, we have numerous reliable non-primary sources publishing it too.

This WP:CRYSTAL is perfect for those who try to use futurology as an argument, saying that in the future FIFA will change again the way it handles the tournament. Thanks for bringing it up.

So, we already have the facts about this situation. Not to be rude, but I'm going to leave this talk that's only going on with you here. Right now, I'm going to focus on the debate that really matters and makes sense about this case, which refers to adapt Wikipedia to reality, in terms of articles to be created, moved, etc. SinisterUnion (talk) 00:24, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Yeah I am done talking to you on this as well. You not understanding basic rules on Wikipedia and your blatant disregard of WP:CONSENSUS are all clear. Jay eyem (talk) 03:39, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Ultimately the problem is that FIFA is attempting pretty clear revisionist history. It is not difficult to find reliable, secondary sources that refer to several of the previous tournaments as "FIFA Club World Cup", whereas all of a sudden FIFA wants to declare that, actually, all of that history belongs to the "FIFA Intercontinental Cup", which is pretty clearly just a rebrand of the pre-existing format. At no point has it ever been up for debate that the 2025 FIFA Club World Cup is a brand new format, it is just factually incorrect that it will be the inaugural edition of a tournament called the FIFA Club World Cup. I can see the merit of moving the article to FIFA Club World Cup (2000–2023) and leaving FIFA Club World Cup as a disambiguation page and eventually we can determine the primary topic. The problem of course is that the Club World Cup is NOT a continuation of the pre-existing Intercontinental Cup, which is pretty clear from the fact that they ran alongside each other once in 2000 and then for multiple years only the Intercontinental Cup was played (which is suspiciously missing from FIFA's post), so we should not be merging the histories of those two tournaments together, regardless of whatever FIFA says. Jay eyem (talk) 07:15, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

@Jay eyem: Yes, it's a mess of a situation. There could be a debate between whether we should follow what FIFA recognise as the history/continuation of their competitions, versus what reliable secondary sources state (while speculative, I imagine this will shift with time as well). However, in my opinion there are four distinct competitions here that deserve separate articles:

• Annual tournaments to determine the club world champions (as recognised by FIFA)
  • European/South American Cup: 1960–2004
  • FIFA Club World Championship/Club World Cup: 2000–2023
  • FIFA Intercontinental Cup: 2024 onwards
• Quadrennial tournament to determine the club world champions (as recognised by FIFA)
  • FIFA Club World Cup: 2025 onwards

I don't think we need to merge/combine any competitions here, it's a similar situation to how the Premier League doesn't inherit the history of the Football League First Division from 1888 to 1992, yet both competitions determined the English champions.

Therefore, the best approach to me would be to move this page to FIFA Club World Cup (2000–2023), and then create a new article at FIFA Club World Cup covering the tournament from 2025. Everything else remains the same. However, there should be a wider discussion/consensus before making any such moves/changes. (Or who knows, maybe this expanded competition will go up in smoke à la 2001.) S.A. Julio (talk) 08:14, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Well, I think there are 2 options, taking into account patterns Wikipedia already used. First one is to do what @S.A. Julio said, that I won't go into more arguments and examples, because he's already done that and I think it is an excellent option.

The other option is to do what Wikipedia has adopted regarding the Brazilian League, which unified the tournaments from 1959 to 1970 with the original ones (1971-). Despite being different tournaments, they are all treated equally by Wikipedia, due to the fact that it defines the Brazilian champion. Same as FIFA "recognising all European and South American teams that won the Intercontinental Cup – played between 1960 and 2004 – as club world champions", also treating Intercontinental Cup (1960-2004) and FIFA Club World Championship/Cup (2000-2023) as an "evolution of FIFA’s annual global club competition and, finally, with the fact that FIFA defines that FIFA Intercontinental Cup "has an exciting new format", so if the tournament has a new format, this cannot be its first edition (it refers to a unification - just like the list of world champions that have already been unified from 1960 to 2023).[12]

So, the other option would be to unify all content from Intercontinental Cup (1960-2004) and FIFA Club World Cup (2000–2023) into FIFA Intercontinental Cup's article, requesting the page history to be merged and leaving redirects, and the FIFA Club World Cup article for the new tournament from 2025 onwards. SinisterUnion (talk) 00:45, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Under no circumstances should the 1960–2004 tournament be merged with any other. All sources, including the FIFA one linked above, agree that it was a distinct competition that did not continue on. BLAIXX 03:41, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, that latter choice is absolutely not an option. These are all distinct tournaments with their own history, despite whatever nonsense revisionist history FIFA is trying to pull. If we are going to make any changes, I think the proposal by S.A. Julio is the only remotely acceptable proposal. Jay eyem (talk) 03:46, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm in favour of not making any changes at least until the end of the 2024 IC to get a better idea of how sources other than FIFA will be reporting it. In my opinion, it's not unreasonable for FIFA to call the 2024 IC a continuation of the 2023 CWC given the similarities of the formats but I want to see what actually happens. BLAIXX 03:58, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

I too think it might be best to wait, we do not need to rush to a decision. Assuming the likely scenario that Real Madrid win the 2024 Intercontinental Cup, we can see whether FIFA and other sources recognise it as their 1st or 6th title. However, the format certainly had a significant shift from 2023 to 2024, no longer played entirely in a centralized location (thus no host slot) and now taking multiple months to complete. S.A. Julio (talk) 05:33, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

You wrong @Blaixx. As I said before, beyond that FIFA unified their titles as world champions, if you read well that article, you can see FIFA shows the history of continuity, from the 1960-2004 Intercontinental Cup to more recently the FIFA Club World Championship/Cup (2000-2023), until the creation of the FIFA Intercontinental Cup.

As another example I forgot to give earlier, actually the best example since it is exactly the same case as this one, we have the FIFA Arab Cup. It was created in 1963 by UAFA and only in 2021 was organized for the 1st time by FIFA. So, it was created as Arab Cup and renamed FIFA Arab Cup in 2021. Same case of International Cup (1960-2004) and FIFA International Cup (2024-). Also, if you go to the FIFA Arab Cup's article here on Wikipedia, you can see it is considered a continuation and it is everything in the same article.

The fact is we do need to make changes to keep Wikipedia accurate. The options are on the table, we just can't be lazy and keep the same wrong and inaccurate, hoping FIFA change its position at some point. That's not going to happen, since FIFA and all important non-primary sources are in agreement, at least since March, and each passing month it becomes clearer. SinisterUnion (talk) 05:00, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

No rush to make any changes now. Island92 (talk) 06:49, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

I can agree we don't need to rush to make any changes right now regarding FIFA Intercontinental Cup, despite FIFA Arab Cup example I gave, which makes an edit already possible, following a pattern from Wikipedia itself.

However, about the new FIFA Club World (2025-onwards), we can't just hide the truth and leave things the way they are. It's clear as daylight that FIFA and other reliable non-primary sources treat it as a different tournament.

I'm here to make Wikipedia bigger, better and more reliable. I'm well aware that those who come in to revolutionize things end up bothering people who are complacent, but I don't care. Here we have ideas to exchange. No ideas for the falter. SinisterUnion (talk) 12:24, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

If you continue to cast aspersions ("bothering people who are complacent") you are likely not to be editing anything. Please stop doing that. Black Kite (talk) 14:36, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Are you threatening me for a comment directed to lazy people?

That comment was directed to people who are lazy, by no means it was directed to all the people commenting here. There are excellent editors here, of the highest rank, to whom I take my hat off and use them as a source of inspiration. But, if you want me to end up "editing anything" go ahead. I don't care at all. As I said, I'm here to revolutionize, trying make Wikipedia bigger and better every day. I will do it and I know lazy people will get mad on me, that's what I meant. SinisterUnion (talk) 14:50, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

You are conflating the individual tournaments with the title of “club world champions”. FIFA is quite clear that the IC and the CWC are distinct (even mentioning that they ran concurrently at one point). Yes they retroactively awarded the IC winners the title of “club world champions” but no, they did not retroactively merge the two competitions together. BLAIXX 16:33, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

FIFA DOES NOT unify the title of the old Intercontinental Cup (1960-2004) with the title of the FIFA Club World Cup (2000, 2005-2023). FIFA only RECOGNIZES the champions of the old Intercontinental Cup (1960-2004) as world champions, but it is NOT a unification! On the archive page dedicated to the annual editions of the FIFA Club World Cup the old Intercontinental Cup is not even mentioned, even the FIFA Intercontinental Cup is indicated as the annual edition of 2024. Another evidence is another module on the FIFA website called FIFA+, in which one of the pages is dedicated to listing ALL the FIFA Club World Cup finals and also, the editions between 1960 to 2004 of the old Intercontinental Cup are also not mentioned.

Just revisit the article FIFA Intercontinental Cup™: Key information on the FIFA website, in the section "Evolution of FIFA’s annual global club competition" and you can read the excerpt "In October 2017, the FIFA Council approved a motion recognizing all European and South American teams that won the Intercontinental Cup – played between 1960 and 2004 – as club world champions.", in other words, this text reinforces what I stated previously, that in 2017 FIFA only RECOGNIZED the titles of the clubs that were champions of the old Intercontinental Cup as a title with worldwide scope, but at no point is it stated that there was a unification of the titles of the old Intercontinental Cup (1960-2004) with the FIFA Club World Cup (2000, 2005-2023). There is no evidence that FIFA did the same with these two tournaments as the CBF did with the "Torneio Roberto Gomes Pedrosa" and "Taça Brasil" which in 2010 began to be considered as editions of the "Campeonato Brasileiro".

This is evidence that the titles are not unified, but rather a HISTORICAL RECOGNITION, that is, they are considered distinct competitions. Natan96-wiki (talk) 23:32, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Every day that passes I become more inclined to support even more the thesis of 4 articles for 4 different tournaments. I just saw an article from Al Jazeera and they treat FIFA Intercontinental Cup as 1st edition without doing any reference to past editions. Analyzing several references and recent articles, I believe that it is not the best thing to do unify all the articles. [13]

So, we can start to make improvements now, to fit Wikipedia into reality, leaving an article for each tournament, which are:

- Super Cup like tournaments to define world champions (annual):

Intercontinental Cup (1960–2004)

FIFA Club World Championship/Cup (2000–2023)

FIFA Intercontinental Cup (2024-)

- World Cup like tournament to define world champions (quadrennial)

FIFA Club World Cup (2025-) SinisterUnion (talk) 22:43, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

No rush to change things now. We JUST had a lengthy discussion about consensus building at WT:FOOTY and you are still trying to force your way through at two separate talk pages. I agree with @Jay eyem: that this is beginning to border on disruptive editing. Please understand what WP:CONSENSUS means. It doesn't mean other editors are lazy if they do not share your position on the need to revolutionise Wikipedia. Please consider directing your efforts in improving Wikipedia by spending your precious time on improving other articles rather than your time generating daily huge posts at these talk pages, reinforcing your beliefs that inaction on your proposed changes is diminishing Wikipedia's reputation. Matilda Maniac (talk) 22:41, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

First of all, you did a terrible edit that put like I had 2 comments in a row. That's a terrible atitude. It only demonstrates the level of some editors, with the purpose of trying to burn the other editor's reputation that doesn't have the same opinion as you. But, I was aware of it already. I corrected it. Second, I know what consensus means, but it doesn't mean everybody needs to agree. Also, not a disruptive editing, since I didn't edit anything in those articles last days, stop with the lies. Although I could, since new information has come out and new definitions have come out as well. Furthermore, those other discussions are related to another topic. If you were aware of the discussion, you would even know that there was talk here about reopening it there, however we chose to keep it here because they are about different topics, so your argument about other discussions that have already taken place does not apply. It is important to be aware of the topic and what has already been discussed, so that you do not embarrass yourself in the discussion.

This is not rush... this is correct mistakes, recalculate route and improve Wikipedia to make it better and better, revolutionize.

We have primary and secondary sources in the same sense, and only a couple of sleepy people who don't want changes, because "it will be a lot of work". And that's what I fight so hard against it. That's why I say I'm here to revolutionize and that's what I'm going to do. No, you don't define what I should or shouldn't do. I'm already in several areas of Wikipedia making improvements, but I don't need to come here to brag. SinisterUnion (talk) 01:42, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Based on this post, and your threat on my talk page when I post an opinion that you do not share, and if you seriously thought my edit was Vandalism, then you are clearly not being here to build an encyclopedia (WP:NOTHERE). Matilda Maniac (talk) 04:04, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

I think you're going the wrong way with the nomenclature. If you want to improve the english Wikipedia regarding these football tournaments, the correct approach would be this (based on the portuguese Wikipedia):

- FIFA Club World Cup (annual)

- FIFA Intercontinental Cup

- FIFA Club World Cup (quadrennial)

This would be the most appropriate approach, since the official name of the new quadrennial tournament is "Mundial de Clubes FIFA" in portuguese, but in english this name HAS NOT CHANGED regarding the annual competition until 2023! That's why your proposal seems confusing! It is more appropriate to create a new article with the title "FIFA Club World Cup (quadrennial)" than to change the title of the existing article to "FIFA Club World Championship/FIFA Club World Cup 2000-2023" and create another one with the title "FIFA Club World Cup". This is confusing. Natan96-wiki (talk) 14:48, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I suggest what I have suggested before: it is a fact that the FIFA Club World Cup 2025 is a new competition that will be held every four years, and since it keeps the same name in english as the annual format played until 2023, the correct thing to do would be to create a new article indicating that it is the quadrennial tournament and in that article indicate that it is the old annual tournament:

- change the title of this article to "FIFA Club World Cup (annual)" (2000, 2005-2023)

- create a new article titled "FIFA Club World Cup (quadrennial)" (from 2025 onwards)

- keep the article "FIFA Intercontinental Cup" (2024-present)

- keep the article "Intercontinental Cup (football)" (1960-2004)

In my opinion, this is the most appropriate way to deal with the situation.

Natan96-wiki (talk) 21:30, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

History merge request opened

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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After all the arguments in the previous topic, we came to the conclusion that we have primary sources and all important secondary sources in the same sense, in addition to a consensus (not unanimous), that we must make changes to make articles accurate and improve Wikipedia's quality in accordance with reality. So, The Faction (faction within Wikipedia created with the aim of making it bigger, better and more accurate every day) 1st Act is correct mistakes about football club tournaments, with FIFA tournaments being the first to be fixed. Just to let everybody knows, also, a history merge request was opened at FIFA Club World Championship. SinisterUnion (talk) 22:19, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

• And reverted, since you fairly obviously don't have any consensus to do so. Maybe it will happen at some point in the future, but it definitely won't on the basis of the current discussions. Black Kite (talk) 23:10, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
• Black Kite, in all that verbosity, did you actually see what they are trying to do? Drmies (talk) 01:03, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
  • @Drmies: Yes, I have been following this for a while, I previously blocked User:Fa30sp for similar nonsense. There is a chance that eventually the articles will be repurposed but at the moment, given FIFA's penchant for changing their mind every five minutes, it is all WP:CRYSTAL. Black Kite (talk) 10:01, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
    • Ah--I see: it's a naming/renaming kind of thing, and someone without much experience is Getting it Right. I see the editor is now blocked. Drmies (talk) 14:24, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
    • OK, turns out it was a one-man faction anyway. Drmies (talk) 14:37, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

I will suggest what I have suggested before: it is a fact that the FIFA Club World Cup 2025 is a new competition that will be held every four years, and since it keeps the same name in english as the annual format played until 2023, the correct thing to do would be to create a new article indicating that it is a four-year tournament and in that article indicate that it is an annual tournament:

- change the title of this article to "FIFA Club World Cup (annual)" (2000, 2005-2023)

- create a new article titled "FIFA Club World Cup (quadrennial)" (from 2025 onwards)

- keep the article "FIFA Intercontinental Cup" (2024-present)

- keep the article "Intercontinental Cup (football)" (1960-2004)

In my opinion, this is the most appropriate way to deal with the situation. Natan96-wiki (talk) 03:45, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Trophy removal

@Snowflake91 there's a new trophy for Club World Cup and this has become the intercontinental cup like the red variant of this cup called FIFA Africa Asia Pacific Cup. Upload that trophy and put this on intercontinental page with editing the name below. ‍—⚰️NΛSΛ B1058 (TALK) 12:24, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

That new 2025+ tournament will get a new article most likely in the following months, so no point of deleting this old logo now as this page will cover 2000-2023 tournaments, which used this current logo. Snowflake91 (talk) 12:35, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

@Snowflake91 Should we merge the intercontinental here once the 4 year tournament page is made as it uses same trophy and format and annual occurance is same like this old club World cup ‍—⚰️NΛSΛ B1058 (TALK) 15:09, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

There was a discussion about this at WP:FOOTY although it seems to have stalled out. BLAIXX 15:24, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

IMO it should be the way that edit warring sock in the section above has presented (a new article for the 2025-present edition, while this article is for 2000-2023 only), but there is no consensus and we should not rush things, it is still over half a year before the tournament starts. Snowflake91 (talk) 15:30, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

My current question is should we include FIFA intercontinental Cup here instead of giving it a new page once the 4 year cwc page is made like AFC Champions League Elite (names were different over years but purpose is same)? ‍—⚰️NΛSΛ B1058 (TALK) 15:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

@Snowflake91 bro, Names for afc cl are:

AFC Champions League Elite

AFC Champions League

Asian Club Championship

Asian Champion Club Tournament ‍—⚰️NΛSΛ B1058 (TALK) 15:43, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I think that's where we will end up, but we are just waiting for things to stabilize since FIFA has already pulled a 180 on us once. Originally FIFA was saying that the 2025 CWC was an expansion of the existing tournament. Then they created the Intercontinental Cup as new tournament to fill the void of the old CWC. Then they decided that the 2025 CWC was the first edition of a brand new tournament. And now most recently they have seemingly decided that the new IC is the continuation of the old CWC under a new name! As far as I can tell, no secondary sources have picked on that last point yet but I feel like they will once the 2024 FIFA IC takes place next month. BLAIXX 22:25, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

What is IC btw @Blaixx is it a tournament or final as other matches in this tournament are differently named ‍—⚰️NΛSΛ B1058 (TALK) 03:54, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, that's the FIFA Intercontinental Cup. It's a tournament. BLAIXX 15:50, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Na I already understood IC=Intercontinental Cup @Blaixx, I am asking how final and tournament both are called with same name? ‍—⚰️NΛSΛ B1058 (TALK) 07:53, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

IC? 🌴🌎🦨 1° Champion🥇 2804:14D:32B3:8570:CC7B:CEDD:4478:E1F3 (talk) 05:21, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Intercontinental Cup like CWC for club world cup vro @2804:14D:32B3:8570:CC7B:CEDD:4478:E1F3 ‍—⚰️NΛSΛ B1058 (TALK) 13:00, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

The FIFA Council approved the establishment of a NEW landmark club competition: Friday 15 March 2019 - FIFA.com [14] 2804:23D4:C208:2501:9A18:8E04:D0A0:5C (talk) 09:52, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

The paragraph about the Trophy is missing

Kindly note that a specific paragraph dedicated to the trophy is missing. Following the FIFA World Cup page on Wikipedia, the section about the Trophy should be placed between the paragraphs named "History" and "Format". Bergenoslo (talk) 09:18, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Name

In these posts (1, 2, 3), FIFA seems to say that the FIFA Intercontinental Cup and the FIFA Club World Cup are the same competition. Should we change the title to FIFA Intercontinental Cup and create a new article for the FIFA Club World Cup (the tournament that will start in 2025)? Dipralb (talk) 15:33, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

I think that's what we should do but only once there are some secondary sources (non-FIFA) that can support it. BLAIXX 16:15, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Here is a good non-Twitter primary source: "Each Participating Club acknowledges that the Competition is a continuation of FIFA’s annual club competition (formerly known as the FIFA Club World Cup™) in line with FIFA’s objective and efforts to reformat this competition, which will be renamed as the FIFA Intercontinental Cup™ from 2024 onwards".(page 10) BLAIXX 14:53, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

what will be the best solution? 1 - merging those two articles (FIFA Club World Cup and FIFA Intercontinental Cup) with „FIFA Intercontinental Cup” name and create a new article with „FIFA Club World Cup” name for tournament that will start in 2025; 2 - moving all information from FIFA Club World Cup article to FIFA Intercontinental Cup article and rewriting from scratch the FIFA Club World Cup article. we just need those secondary sources. thank you. Patagonia41 (talk) 23:18, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

yes, i think you're right. even more, these two articles should be merged (Intercontinental Cup (1960–2004) and FIFA Intercontinental Cup), because in this post (4) fifa recognises only one competition, from 1960 to present. Patagonia41 (talk) 22:52, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

No, it's well established by FIFA and secondary sources that the 1960–2004 Intercontinental Cup is a separate competition. Winner of that competition were retroactively awarded the title of "club world champions" but that's it. BLAIXX 18:27, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

For now, Manchester City continues to wear the golden FIFA badge as the reigning Club World Cup champions. IMHO this marks a clear distinction between the FIFA Club World Cup and the FIFA Intercontinental Cup, so I take a step back on the proposal.--Dipralb (talk) 23:52, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

What does the ass🦨 have to do with the pants. The Pdf, It's the tournament rules. 2804:23D4:C208:2501:5544:6ED6:1884:D8D2 (talk) 00:13, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

If they were the same thing, Manchester City would no longer wear the FIFA badge.--Dipralb (talk) 00:43, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

i'd rather trust the primary source FIFA than trust a club wearing a golden badge. FIFA makes it quite clear that it is the same competition (official document, X official posts, same format, same trophy), but we need those secondary sources to confirm this. Patagonia41 (talk) 16:48, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

That's not quite right. The name, the format and the trophy are different and the FIFA Champions Badge is a kit emblem that can only be worn with the authorization of FIFA (FIFA owns, makes and licenses-out the physical badge).--Dipralb (talk) 17:05, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

please, read this FIFA official document (page 10, 1.1) Patagonia41 (talk) 17:17, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

I read that. But why doesn't Real Madrid wear the FIFA Champions badge then (1)? Instead Manchester City continues to wear it.--Dipralb (talk) 17:41, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

in this moment, i don't know. maybe we'll find out in the next period (maybe there have been some changes to the rules for wearing the golden badge). Patagonia41 (talk) 17:58, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

FIFA defines the FIFA Intercontinental Cup as a continuation of its annual club competition but in my opinion this does not necessarily mean that the FIFA Club World Cup and the FIFA Intercontinental Cup are the same competition. Again, the fact that Manchester City still wears the FIFA Champions Badge means that they are reigning champions of the FIFA Club World Cup.--Dipralb (talk) 21:31, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

After these "misunderstood arguments"🦨 against the FIFA PDF, the 2024 regulations, I was 🤮 and looked for a hospital. 2804:14D:32B3:8570:34D8:CB05:806D:64C (talk) 00:06, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

This is a discussion space. Please respect other opinions.--Dipralb (talk) 10:53, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

yes, it is very important to respect all opinions, whether we agree with them or not. Patagonia41 (talk) 11:48, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

the following text from the official FIFA document makes it very clear that is the same competition: „Each Participating Club acknowledges that the Competition is a continuation of FIFA’s annual club competition (formerly known as the FIFA Club World Cup™) in line with FIFA’s objective and efforts to reformat this competition, which will be renamed as the FIFA Intercontinental Cup™ from 2024 onwards.” that's how i understand. Patagonia41 (talk) 11:36, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

these sources claim something different than the FIFA source: Footy Headlines, World Soccer Talk

i found a few other sources that claim something different than FIFA: Goal, SI, Olympics, One Football

what is certain is that we are witnessing a strange situation, FIFA claims something, secondary sources claims something else.

i think the best thing we can do now is not to make changes and wait for this situation to be clarified with these FIFA competitions, and when more reliable secondary sources appear, we can make certain changes. Patagonia41 (talk) 13:00, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Manchester City continue to wear the FIFA Champions Badge and this means that they are still reigning champions.--Dipralb (talk) 17:14, 22 December 2024 (UTC)